Muses of Play: Powered By The Bakers (Broadcast Cut)

We sit down with the Bakers to talk about how games and art grow out of everyday family life. We dig into creative conflict, staying unstuck, and why shelving a project can be a sign of craft rather than failure. 
• building a household that supports making through space, tools, and tolerance for mess 
• handling creative disagreement by keeping vision ownership clear 
• collaborating across different styles from solitary drafting to talk-it-through ideation 
• separating feedback from co-opting, asking for help without losing control 
• switching modes with small rituals, momentum, and “one step closer” progress 
• letting unfinished work exist, then choosing what to keep or release 
• abandoning broken designs, saving parts, and avoiding years-long dead ends 
• finding creative community through weekly meetups, check-ins, and lightweight support structures 

Thank you so much for listening. Please comment and let us know what you thought of the episode or your thoughts on creativity and making games.

Transcript

Welcome And Why The Bakers

SPEAKER_02 0:00

I humble brag, don't get stuck.

SPEAKER_00 0:13

Welcome to Muses of Play, a podcast about creativity, inspiration, and the messy joy of making games and art.

SPEAKER_04 0:21

We'll chat with designers, writers, artists, and makers about where their ideas come from, how they shape their work, and what keeps them going.

SPEAKER_00 0:29

I'm Sarah Doom. I write fiction, design games, and make art. I'm deeply invested in creativity and inspiration, and I'm always looking for ways to incorporate others' routines and rituals into something I can use.

SPEAKER_04 0:42

And I'm Mad Jay. If you game, I play games. I run games, travel for games, write about, stream, and podcast games. As I explore the shape of my new game, I thought I could cheat by having conversations with different folks about how they do it. Today's episode is a special one. Sarah and I had the chance to sit down with a family whose influence on modern tabletop design is hard to overstate. McGuire, Vincent, Elliot, and Tovey. The Bakers. So if you've played or been inspired by Apocalypse World or any of the games that grew out of it, you felt the ripple effects of the Baker's work. The Powered by the Apocalypse approach reshaped how a lot of us think about moves, conversation, and fiction first play. Today's conversation is a little different, though. It's not just about design, it's about family, collaboration, creativity, conflict, and what it looks like when a household becomes part of the fabric of the indie games community. I sometimes think of them as the first family of indie RPGs, a group whose work, ideas, and generosity have shaped the hobby for decades. And for me personally, it's a real joy and honestly an honor to get to talk to them all here in one shot. You see, my fanboy list is tiny. It's got three entries, and the bakers are at the top. This is part one of our conversation with the bakers. We spent about an hour talking about how games emerge from a life lived around them, what it means to grow up in the design household, and how the indie scene has evolved and collaborated over the years. So settle in. This is our conversation.

SPEAKER_01 2:29

Well, thank you so much for having us. Um I'm McGay Baker. I make things. Um one of the things I made is this. This is Elliot Baker. And Elliot is our middle child. You're how old are you now? 25. 25. Yes, you can be born in 2000, so you're conveniently the same age as the year. Um and like one of the things that's really interesting about this question of creativity and how do we be creative is like the way that our family has fostered each other's creativity and like speaks to that. Um, Elliot is a game designer in his own right and is incredibly uh uh integrated into our design process in terms of like being one of our like first playtesters and bounce an idea off. And like in the last week or so, it's been a lot of like me going, I have this idea as we go for a walk. And you're like, Well, what about this thing? So, anyway, do you want to introduce yourself more than that? Because the it's not just a game design podcast, it's about creative, right?

SPEAKER_03 3:36

I'm Elliot Baker, I uh design games and I also write and do um some 3D stuff.

SPEAKER_01 3:50

Um 3D sculpture, do some animation, little bit tiny. It's been kind of cool, like watching you like one of the things about being a creative household and and trying to foster that creativity for ourselves and for other people, um, is like the putting up with right? Our house is so full of stuff all the time. Yeah, yeah. Um, and uh it means that there's times people are like, I have to make this thing, I know it's everywhere, but I have to make it. So yeah, that's lovely. Thank you. And I know you both have kids, so you know how it goes. Yeah, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 4:32

I was gonna ask as a follow-on, is your house, is your process kind of set up like that too? Is it easy to get whatever materials, whatever resources that you need as you're working on stuff or grabbing stuff or doing stuff?

SPEAKER_03 4:47

Yes and no. There are always materials on hand. Yep, they might not be for what you want to do. Um explain that a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 5:04

From where I'm sitting, right here, I can see materials for jewelry making, little 3D sculpture with like sculpion things, any kind of 2D, you know, painting or markers or pencils or things like that. There's paper in there, there's uh bead making, all kinds of fabric y stuff. Um there's some bookmaking supplies there, and there's a whole bunch of is that paper or foam?

SPEAKER_03 5:36

Um looks like foam, yeah, and a whole bunch of craft foam, like where we are.

SPEAKER_01 5:42

Oh, and there's like the drawer there that has all kinds of make a thing stick together. Yeah, um glue and tape and hot glue and um paper clips and bold-out clips. That's how we divide things. It's like, what is their function? We have a bar thing over there that is make things come apart, and it has lots of scissors and stuff. Nice, nice. If you need it, that's where it is. Anyway, yeah, and in the next room, I think there's some model kits and a ton of dungeons and dragons. And well, not actually, I don't think that there probably is dungeons and dragons, probably technically dungeons and dragons, technically dungeons and or dragons, and like a ton of other stuff on Legos, of course.

SPEAKER_03 6:25

Yeah, yeah, Legos in every single room in the house.

SPEAKER_01 6:30

This is literally Vincent and I both brought Legos with us to the marriage, and we celebrated getting our marriage license by getting Legos, and we got Legos as um baby shower gifts for all three kids. Wow. So it's a little bit absurd. Oh my sorry. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 6:55

That is really cool.

SPEAKER_01 6:56

Yeah, it's a plethora. I also think like one of the things for me is that when I was growing up as a really creative kid who also grew up with a lot of scarcity, um, and like getting a new box of like the big box, the 64 crown box at Christmas was a big deal. Um and one of Vincent's sisters talks about the year that they all got paper, you know, that somebody got a ream of graph paper and somebody else got a ream of construction paper, and everybody somebody else got a ream of, you know, watercolor paper, and they could share and how cool that was. But like, so we grew up with the Vincent and I both grew up with uh incredibly creative households that also had to be really creative about finding materials and time and space to do that. Uh, so we have really prioritized that in a way for you kids. That um you know we will fund that, we will find time for that, we will put up with the space requirements for that, we will put it on the wall, you know, because uh that's that's just what we've prioritized is supporting everybody's creative endeavors.

SPEAKER_04 8:15

How do you folks handle creative disagreement? Because I'm thinking there's like four or five of you, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:24

Give or take at any any given point in time. Um do you want to answer that first? Because I I mean I think really they uh yours your relationship with that is different too.

SPEAKER_03 8:36

Well, it's different between every pair of us. That's true. Um because each of us collaborate differently.

SPEAKER_01 8:46

Yeah. Like you if I may, you and Tovi do a ton of Heroforge design, which is very like that's the other thing, like creative tools differ from when I was a little kid. And so digital art is a real thing. And learning to use Lego as a uh creative medium or heroforge as a creative medium is it's been a really cool process to watch. Um, and watching the two of you sort of bounce off each other, I think it's more a bounce off each other than a disagreement.

SPEAKER_03 9:21

Well, like Toby and I don't collaborate creatively very much, but we're usually aware of what the other is doing. We talk a lot about our ideas and we talk a lot, like we show each other our work all the time constantly.

SPEAKER_01 9:42

Um in terms of disagreement, collaborative disagreements or creative disagreements, more it'd be like on specific things that we are any anyone is collaborating on. Like um, you know, Vincent and I obviously collaborate on a lot of things, yeah. Uh in terms of game design. And occasionally on other stuff. Like we have we have done a little bit of other creative things, but mostly it's game design. And uh, but working with you on game design or watching Vincent and Toby work on game design, um, or you and your dad working on game design, very, very different. But one of the things that's happened is that we have really modeled um maybe accidentally and maybe but also like with really intention, um a level of uh fruitful striving together, of like trying to make sure the other person is seeing where we're comic for right. Like last night, this is how I know your dad and I are like really in the depths of writing Apocalypse World third edition. Because like last night we're like looking at a thing and I'm looking over the playbooks and I'm like, I don't know about this word, this one word. You know, read these over, see what you think, because we're you know, we're at that stage, and I'm like, just I don't like this one word. I don't know if I can be a fan of this playbook. I don't know if we can do this. And your dad's like, what do you mean? Do we have to scrap it, start over? Like, and it just has to get to the point of striving together to be like, here is what I need to distill it down to the clarity of saying this particular word makes this part of the playbook feel out of sync with this other part of the playbook. So we have to change this word so that they sync up. I mean, it took us half an hour, but I remember the first time you and I had a conversation like that, where it it's like this shift, and you're like, oh, it's not arguing, okay. Yeah, it's not disagreeing. It could look like that from the outside of like because there's um uh vigor and intensity and striding, but um, and I I forget what game it was you were working on, either nonwater salvage or haunted. And there was something where I was like saying, like, you know, the thing you do with any creative, like, okay, is this what you're working on? How do you think? And you're like, nope, not like that, has to be like this. And it was this this really cool moment for me as a parent to observe you having the same relationship to that sort of um creative feedback and being able to take it not as a um criticism, but as a say, like, here's a place I'm not understanding, and you could be like, here's a place I can stick like that. Do you remember that? I don't remember that.

SPEAKER_03 12:47

I don't remember that at all. But I know the the process of creating something that has a uh confusing part that the whatever test audience catches on. Um or even creating something that has a part that I'm like, I can't get this one piece right. Someone help me with this one piece is not making sense. I can't like um can't find a word that has the right set of connotations that I want or something like that.

SPEAKER_01 13:35

So Elliot's halfway through writing a second book and a series of young adults, more than halfway, but it's taking a long time to finish it. That's fine. It's a creative process. It's um but that that process of you coming to Vincent or me or somebody else and being like, okay, I need a word that means this. And it's uh a creative, um it's a creative person's respect for another creative person's insight or process to know that you're not asking for collaboration there. You're asking for help with a specific thing. And I just had a really wild experience with my sister about this, where I was like, here's a cool thing, we're doing this cool um what if history uh framework that we're working on to do a whole new uh different take on game design. And Serena, my sister, who I love dearly, instantly was like, Oh, and you could do this and you could do this. And I was like, hold on. What what? And then after she like upset, oh I'm sorry, and I'm you know, I can I see I see this isn't going so well. She drove away and then called me with more, like, oh, but what and this, and again, it was just like, what are you doing? This is not what finally the next day she called and it's like, oh I forgot which one of us was which. Um that this isn't actually my project, and I don't have to be right there in like having the same emotional reaction and investment. I can just be like, wow, that sounds like an awesome thing you're doing. I'd love to see the next bit. Um and I think that happens a lot in families and a lot in close, like creative groups where people are working together. I think it's a actually a fairly hard thing to have that separation. Um Epi Epidai Ravishall and uh has a great phrase for that, which is you know, it's specific in game design of like uh when you're doing uh uh game storming. Hey, Vincent's here. And um there's one person that we understand, like, okay, this is this is Sarah's vision for this game. Yeah, this is Sarah's game. We're all just here to like hang out and you know bounce off and see how it goes. Um it helps avoid that that thing of forgetting who's got the vision. But yeah, we try to keep that clear. Hi, Vincent. How are you?

SPEAKER_02 16:16

Hello. I've been listening for a little while while I was uh arriving home. Welcome, it's good to see you. It's been a while. It has, it's been a long time. Uh did I did I see you in Arizona right before the pandemic?

SPEAKER_04 16:37

No, I think was that was I thought that was California right before the pandemic.

SPEAKER_01 16:41

Yeah, it wasn't it was a big bed.

SPEAKER_04 16:43

Yeah, it was a big bad right before the came. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 16:46

Yeah, it's a big bad last team.

SPEAKER_04 16:48

Yeah, that's the last time I saw a lot of folks together. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:55

So yeah. Sarah, I last saw you at a PAX. Is that true?

SPEAKER_00 17:00

No, because I've never been to PAX. No, we saw Sarah.

SPEAKER_01 17:04

Sarah, Sarah has been in um Morristown with us. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 17:10

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 17:11

It has also been quite a while.

SPEAKER_02 17:12

Oh, quite a while.

SPEAKER_00 17:14

Um, we were just uh hearing how your family handles creative disagreements.

SPEAKER_02 17:21

Um I was eavesdropping.

SPEAKER_00 17:23

I don't know if you want to to jump right in and add to that, or you had something else on your mind.

SPEAKER_02 17:29

Uh no, I didn't I didn't mean to interrupt. Oh well, you're you're here now.

SPEAKER_08 17:34

You turned on the camera and therefore you're present.

SPEAKER_02 17:38

Well, I I could tell a little bit about the process I went through with Toby recently. Um where Toby came to me with an idea for a game, and I said, Okay, this is this is great. Can I write up a uh first draft of a first playbook and show it to you? And they were like, Yeah. So I did. And we had to, it took them, so this was a couple of years ago, so they would have been 17 or so, and it took them several weeks of you know, just sort of processing it before they believed me when I said, I'm just writing a draft, and if you don't like it, your word goes. Like this is your vision. I'm doing my best to help you with your vision. If I get something wrong, just tell me it's wrong and I'll I'll try something else, or I'll, you know. Um, and it took them a little while to trust that we were actually entering into that relationship where where it I was I would absolutely prefer to their vision uh on every point instead of um trying to negotiate with them or trying to to win them over. Do you know what I mean? Trying to compromise between our visions. Um it was really fun, and it was you you were just saying, Mike, it was really satisfying as a parent to uh have them step into that more adult collaborative relationship.

SPEAKER_01 19:00

Yeah, I super dig that part.

SPEAKER_02 19:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 19:05

Me too. Okay, just saying. No, just checking. When you started that, when you said, Vincent, yeah, can I write a playbook for you? Did you it did you know you were starting that process? Like, was this new that relate that that type of relationship with them? Um, did you know that that was the whole point of, or that was going to be a point, letting them drive and you being supportive, um, and making sure they understood that that's all you're trying to do is be supportive.

SPEAKER_02 19:41

Yeah, yeah, no, I absolutely knew that that was absolutely my intention going into it. The whole the whole thing was that you know their vision for the game was really infective and is infectious. There we go, infectious. And uh I wanted that game to be real, and I knew that I could help make that happen, but I also didn't want it to be any other game, you know. I didn't want it to be my game, I didn't want it to be. And then later on, you know, as I would naturally have ideas for new playbooks, for instance, I would bring them to Toby and say, Hey, what do you think of this? And they, you know, there were times when they said, No, you go, you go back and keep working on that. Show me when it's good, you know. Wow.

SPEAKER_06 20:29

Yeah, absolutely. That's fantastic.

Different Workflows And Validation Traps

SPEAKER_01 20:33

Yeah. I mean, I think part of what one of the things we really intentionally were is like raising all of you to just really respect each other's creative process and that like really to uh take ownership over your own and um be supportive of other people.

SPEAKER_03 20:54

Yeah, yeah. It is interesting seeing how the differences in our collaboration styles, especially around game design, uh lead to can't like can sometimes lead to um I'm just thinking about Mary and how her her workflow is very different. Her her workflow is so different, and her design process is so solitary, yeah, and her creative process generally is so solitary.

SPEAKER_01 21:35

Like she wants something to be done before she shows anything and she wants to get it to the point that it's refined as much as she can to be her vision. At least that's my experience of it.

SPEAKER_03 21:46

And she creates things that are incredibly personal. Yes. Um like a lot of her writing we haven't seen because it's incredibly personal and incredibly like.

SPEAKER_01 22:00

It's ex it's it's not something she's sharing with her family. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:04

Like because it's a way she's exploring herself through her characters. Through her characters. Uh but in game design in particular, that is what you were saying about she really wants she doesn't want to bring it to us until it's finished.

SPEAKER_01 22:23

Right. Well, I mean part of that's because the three of you are so very, very different.

SPEAKER_03 22:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:26

And you're like, I had an idea.

SPEAKER_03 22:28

Yeah. But it means that like it's sometimes hard for her to see Dad and Toby working so closely. Gotcha. Parallel working on the demon tree is the name of the game. Um while she's doing game design, but she's not like she because it doesn't fit in her creative process It's a lot more hidden, it's a lot more invisible.

SPEAKER_01 23:07

Yeah, I mean, and then she'd be like, here's Shell and Soul, you play little bugs who are warriors having adventures, and we're like, oh my god, this is like this has amazing, this has brilliant moves and brilliant design things.

SPEAKER_03 23:20

Um but also she like one of the things we've talked about is that she went through and is probably still going through to some degree, but she definitely went through a period creatively where she was so completely dependent on external validation for her motivation to keep working.

SPEAKER_01 23:51

Right, which is terrible. That's really so many people are in that trap.

SPEAKER_03 23:54

Yes, right, right. Like it kind of had this sabotaging effect on her game design. Because she wasn't showing because she wasn't showing us because it wasn't finished, and that meant she wasn't getting external validation, external um feedback. Yeah. And so she wasn't continuing to work on it, so she wasn't finishing it, so she wasn't showing us.

SPEAKER_01 24:22

Like it's so it's I think that might be where, like, in terms of any to your question about like how do vi various members of us deal with um creative conflict is that piece of um you know, different projects moving forward at different paces, and like you said, you know you haven't had room to write for six months because your past six months has been very, very busy.

SPEAKER_03 24:50

And like I mean, six months, yes. Yeah, but also we're closing in on a full year since I've been writing regularly because a year ago, that's okay, a lot of the like sort of the the things that the characters in my novel were dealing with were not quite as immediately topical. Right, and so it's been a little more stressful to get into the headspace of the characters that I'm writing and to figure out how they would react when I'm when you know we have all of that going on in the United States a little, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:37

Yeah, not to stray too far into that, but yeah.

SPEAKER_04 25:44

I love the mom face. There's a moment where you had the mom face, so I'm like, I know. Okay, that was fantastic.

SPEAKER_08 25:55

That's great.

Rituals For Momentum In Real Life

SPEAKER_00 25:57

Are there any personal rituals, habits, or tools that you use when you get do get stuck? Um, and I know that may also change depending on because because clearly there is such a complex, interwoven relationship among your family, um, since you're all working together.

SPEAKER_02 26:17

So I know that might uh Toby and I go for drives. Um and like whether we're stuck or not, we'll go for a drive and work out the next phase of the project or the next playbook we're working on or whatever. Um and we do that a lot. Uh I humble brag, don't get stuck.

SPEAKER_00 26:43

Excuse me, I'm just gonna put my cable.

SPEAKER_01 26:48

It is it is true, you know, but you also drive yourself really hard and so because that's yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:55

I mean, I'm I'm more likely to switch projects than get, you know what I mean? Right, right. That makes sense. Yeah. Uh so I'll I'll procrastinate on one project with another project. Um and eventually it'll cycle back to the one that I that I was working on. But um yeah, I have I think I just similar I don't know what you're talking about.

SPEAKER_01 27:22

I I think I have a similar space. It's best for me when I can work into my life a certain chunk of creative work every day, you know, like, all right, before my day really gets rolling, I'm gonna nick two rows on this thing I'm doing. Or uh, you know, okay, I finished this uh annoying thing that I was working on. Now I'm gonna do a little bit of creative design work in the way that I can. Um a lot of my creative projects, and this is like you are you and your siblings see a lot of our game design, but you don't see my other creative projects so much. You see my exhibits at work, you know, because my work at in the museum is very, very, very creative in terms of like how do I have these disparate objects and pull a story together out of them and make an exhibit. And you know, that you see, and you see our create our our game design that your dad and I do, but in terms of like sewing projects that I that in my head are active and I work on every year or so, you know, because that's just the time that they have in my life, and that's why they're sitting in that corner, and so that sooner or later I'll be able to pull that out and you know do another little bit of that project. Um but there's a great deal of creative thrive in my life that doesn't get regular expression because it just you know I've got because there's all of that in the world, and then there's like the the tyranny of laundry, yeah. Like so, like one of the jokes that I have is that I meddle in the affairs of the dead for the benefit of the living, you know, and that's what musing work is. It's like oh museums, nobody has to eat or shower or sleep, or you know, and there's none of the the real mess of life because life is messy and complicated and confusing and weird. And like in a museum, I get to just make it all tidy and put it in its little box with its little label, you know. And uh boy, is that not how life works. Um, even even though I might want it to. And then there's the constant, constant thing of new project, new idea. Like, oh, I could do that. Like, right, did I really need all the supplies for this new thing? Guess so. And especially when they land in my lap and like, oh, I would want all the things to do, like sure. Now I have a loom, you know, sort of thing. Um, so there are the ritual is more for me about um switching modes than about getting myself unstuck. It's about um creating small ritual in my day, so and like small transitional moments in my day so that I I have like the uh so I don't get stuck in a doorway, right? And I'm not stuck in a liminal space of what I'm what am I doing. Like I'm gonna do this next little creative bit. Um, and despite the current chaos, that's like also kind of my housekeeping thing. It's like I'll just kick it one step closer to where it should go, and eventually it'll be done. You know? It it works, right? And it's yeah, saying to everybody, hey, round up dishes and bring them to the kitchen. I haven't said bring all the dishes, wash the dishes, put them away. I just like just get it one step closer. Just everything keeps slowly getting one step closer. And then it's the same getting one step closer to finishing a creative project. This is also to say, as like Sarah, I know you and I have um spoken about this in commiseration in the past. I definitely have in this house several different generations of inherited unfinished needlework. Yes. Because as a textile person, what you have constantly is unfinished projects. And I have some that started with my great-grandmother, and that's the way it goes. So um, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 32:29

So so that I understand you have a a project of textile from your great-grandmother that's unfinished. Oh, yeah. And the intent is to move it a couple of steps more forward to finish.

SPEAKER_01 32:45

Yeah, I just should I ever get the time. Um yeah, I mean, this is this is the eternal truth of textile, uh of create of textile creativity. You're never done. Um, you will absolutely 100% leave things unfinished. You just will. Um it it's just it's just true. Same was true of my grandfather my great grandfather and my grandfather, both of whom were woodworkers. You know, you're gonna leave things unfinished because uh you hopefully you don't get to a point in your life where you say, Well, that's it. I'm not starting anything new. I'm like, why are you dead already?

SPEAKER_08 33:27

You know, what is what is wild.

SPEAKER_00 33:35

I can feel the guilty presence of the kids' dollhouse that is right next to me, right next to my feet right now that I'm supposed to gothify. I can feel it looking at me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like these things, they they just kind of come and live in your space and you know you work on them as you can when you can. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:02

I feel like that's a real thing, Sarah. That like the one of the things of being a very creative person, or or even a marginally creative person, is having that the undone, unfinished, uncomplete things. And hopefully at some point in life one learns to let go of them and be like, oh, that's okay. I'm I I did that. Really? And like, and crafts are big, or you know, I spent 10 years doing Middle Eastern dance and like performing with Middle Eastern dance troops in the valley and going and all kinds of stuff, and I have all kinds of stuff for that. I haven't done that in 25 years. No, that's not quite true. I did dance through Toby's pregnancy, so 20 years. Um I haven't done that in 20 years. Am I gonna go back to it? And at some point you have to let go of the things and be and make those conscious choices and let things go so that other things can come forward. Um, but it's really tough, I think, because we want to see things finished.

SPEAKER_02 35:17

What do you think? Yeah, I was gonna say, I don't like without that desire to let something go, I don't think I would finish anything.

SPEAKER_06 35:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:26

Like, how am I gonna get it out of the door if I don't do it?

SPEAKER_04 35:32

No, this is good to hear because there are a lot of folks that beat themselves up on unfinished projects, right? Um or won't move forward because they're stuck, they don't know how to move forward on this, right? Right, uh, and they can't leave it unfinished uh to even change modes for a little bit.

Abandoning Projects Without Shame

SPEAKER_02 35:49

So this is good to hear. Yeah, one of the things I learned, um, you know, so we've been not only creating games for 25 years, but we've been hanging out with game creators for 25 years, like really kind of intensively. And one of the things that I have noticed, a trap that that I I have mostly dodged, but I have watched several designers lose years of work is a game, in this case a game, but I I imagine it applies to a lot more creative projects than just games. But a game where what the game is about and how the game works don't line up and they can't let either go. Um and so they'll just continue cycling through this thing where the game is not working, right? Um, but they they can't they can't throw either half of it away, they're too committed to both half of it together, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_04 36:50

Right, right. They want them, yeah. They they're trying to join the two.

SPEAKER_02 36:53

Um either of them could work with a different game, but they need a different half to they they both need a different half, you know what I mean. Right, right. So Jay, that was a growing of understanding. Five years, five years the designer has been working on this game to abandon it five years later because it was always gonna be an abandoned game, it was never gonna work, you know.

SPEAKER_07 37:20

Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:21

Um and I think that exactly that skill of abandoning games. We were somebody was interviewing me and Meg together one time and asked how many games do we abandon for every game that we finished. All of them. And yeah, like in one voice, we said hundreds, hundreds of yeah, all the time.

SPEAKER_01 37:41

All the time. Like I have I have I have dozens of quilts designed that I've never made. I have dozens of quilts that I've designed and bought the fabric for that I've never made. I have probably a couple dozen quilts that I've designed, bought the fabric, fabric, never finished. You know, that's fine. Um, I think for me, the best analogy for creative abandonment is like you gotta think of it as uh parts on a shelf, you know, or or like my great-grandfather never threw away a single scrap of wood, right? Right, you know, it was just there in a bin by type of wood. And you know, when he then he'd be like, Oh, I'm then he would make all these incredibly intricate little pieces of inlay. Great grandpa Nelson who made that just um because it was useful, yeah. And it wasn't in a like a hoarding way, and it wasn't in uh, oh, I really should finish that. It was like, oh damn, cut that piece of hickory wrong, chuck it in the bin, use it later, and then eventually go, hmm, you know, there's a really good R value on that, and it's cold into the stove, it goes, you know, because it's still useful, right? Yes, yes, it's really okay, and like that thing now that I find with a lot of the fabric stuff of like, you know what? It's just with me for a while, and that's okay. If if there's if your creative process involves stuff, you know, having that acknowledgement that life is finite and that these things are with you for a time, but it doesn't mean you have to fret about them, they'll just go to somebody else later. That's fine. And once you do that, you'd be like, I just could go to somebody else now. That'd be okay. You know, I have boxes and boxes of beads, like a lot, a lot of beads um that came my way recently for free. And I'm like, wow, this is amazing! This is like so many beads, and I'm starting to be like, do I need, you know, so like that process of letting go, it's really a good process. Books are harder though, especially when you have multiple people going, I'm really excited for the next chapter. There's this author. All four me and Annika and Emily and Sean and Nas and Merle now.

SPEAKER_03 40:35

I think it might just be the three of you, actually. Well, the when Aiden has read the first.

SPEAKER_01 40:40

Yes, but see when you have your mom and your aunt and your sweetheart and your friends from literally before you were born, all going, This is good, we want more. I'm gonna just throw this orange peel at your head now, sponk.

SPEAKER_03 40:55

And it's not gonna work. Because I'm stuck on that project, and so now we come back around.

SPEAKER_01 41:02

Definitely get unstuck.

SPEAKER_03 41:05

And for me, I do well, I do one thing and it goes one of two ways, where I sink my teeth into it, and I can't do anything but wrestle with what I'm stuck about until I've either solved it or accepted defeat and moved on, and I'm like, I'll come back to it later. And I have the the time and energy to look at it again. That's one of the ways. I wish I could do what death does switch from one project to another. I mean, I do kind of um but boy, it doesn't feel like I'm I'm it doesn't feel like I'm not getting stuck, it feels very much like I'm getting stuck and eventually uh pivot to the next thing.

Getting Unstuck By Talking It Out

SPEAKER_04 42:07

Now that's that's a curious thing. Do you both think that's an experience thing, or was it always easy for you to switch, Vincent?

SPEAKER_02 42:17

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 42:18

That's a good question.

SPEAKER_02 42:19

Um well uh so I was thinking about it, and there's a playbook that I'm working on right now that uh I haven't solved, but I don't feel stuck. You know what I that actually is a different a different question, but um and here's another thing is that Toby and I are are taking art classes together sometimes, and the teacher's been really cool about that, except one time she held me up as an example of because I do a lot of drawing, you know. Every time I get frustrated with my job, I'll I'll take time to draw, and she said, y'all should be producing as much as Vincent, making as many drawings homework as Vincent. And I was like, you really cannot, Jen. Like, I have adult time management skills, like I have level self-motivating and time management. You really can't be telling these college kids that they should be drawing for anyway. Um, like I don't remember what it was. I mean, you knew me, Meg, when I was in my 20s. Was I did I get stuck?

SPEAKER_05 43:42

Um, let's see.

SPEAKER_00 43:45

I love that you have to ask her.

SPEAKER_01 43:48

Yeah, we met when I was 19 and Vincent was 18. And so I've known we've known each other for a very, very, very long time. Um the ways you got Stuck were different. Um it's not that you didn't get stuck when you were younger, it's just that you stuck on different things. Um I'm trying to think of some of like the earliest creative projects that I was a like that I was around while you were doing like um Pennies from Heaven was one of them. And that you definitely wrestled with of like how do I get this the next frame of this comic right? You know, how do I get this um how do I get the wording right here? How do I get the expression right? And it was a lot of like trying and trying, oh you know, just try until you get it. And then if you weren't if you're really stuck, you'd like, all right, let me go for a walk or you know uh go eat or you know, do something else for a while. And then also code, because you were doing a ton of computer code like that, which is which has which what that does is a ton of learning how to work the tree, and being like, okay, well, this is the problem. How do I, you know, how do I find the all the the possible pieces to work the tree and solve the problem? Um, which is something that you've picked up. Like uh I'm not as good at that. I will go, ah, it's an organ. And I get uh usually visit, it's sometimes. Um and you you know you you get to that, ah, it's not working, but it you've gone much, much, much further down working the tree than I have.

SPEAKER_02 45:32

Um yeah, like well, uh I mean I don't know. It it kind of sounds like I've never gotten that stuff. Like sometimes I'll need to take a break.

SPEAKER_04 45:43

Right.

SPEAKER_02 45:44

Um, and sometimes there's a challenge like that I haven't solved yet and don't know how to solve.

SPEAKER_01 45:50

Yeah, but I but it's it's a lot of your your process and Elliot's and that are very similar. Like you need to talk it through. You know, when you're stuck on a thing, what you need to do is go for a walk and talk it through. And like when you're stuck on right, like when you're stuck on when you're stuck on both of this, this is writing for both of you, writing a playbook or writing your book. One of the things that helps is like, all right, I just need to talk this through. You know, go for a walk and talk it through. Or you we go for a drive and you're like, I'm working on this scene and I'm stuck on this scene. Could you reread the scene and say what you see what you're so it's a process of talking it through and having other people in your life who you can turn to in a very secure way that you can trust will um not try to co-opt it and not try to uh tell you what to do with it, but will say, all right, here's what I see, what sort of feedback is helpful, sort of thing. I think that that is something that the two of you share is that you know, and then we've all called we've cultivated it in our family is that sense of um because we don't try to co-opt each other's creative process, there's you know, it's it's easier to trust to say, here's this thing I'm struggling with. And then personal, like personal stuff in terms of like what Mary doesn't share or what Toby doesn't share, or what I don't share. You know, just because of various reasons.

Building Creative Community That Actually Works

SPEAKER_00 47:28

So that reminds me in the first episode, Jay and I talked about how I have this weekly call with my with a fellow game designer, and we were talking about how like important that can be. So ha it sounds like you have kind of made your own uh form of game designer discourse.

SPEAKER_01 47:56

Yeah, we also get together, um, we have met at least once a week with Epidia Ramshaw and Emily Care Boss for coffee and game design for at least a decade. Um, once a week. Uh even through the pandemic when we were meeting over Zoom, or when it got to be a little later or warmer, we could meet outside to across, you know, the 10 feet apart. But over a decade. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 48:26

And for most of that, it was twice a week.

SPEAKER_01 48:29

Yes, that's true. Um, and that is incredibly uh uh valuable. Um, and then how long has it been since there's been gaming here? St. Mary was 12, but she's about to be 29. So how many years have we been? 17 years. So for 17 years, we've had um once a week uh with with not a lot of exceptions, yeah. Um, there be uh gaming that happens in our house with um the Baker House band, which is you and your siblings and whoever that gaming group is. And I really think that that counts Sarah as that like cultivating a gaming uh group that we could discuss things with. Because like now, you know, since I've known, you know, Josh Savoy for 17 years, uh, I can talk to him about things. And I was like, I knew what a crappy little jerk you were when you were telling. And I like sat on you uh metaphorically to like no, you are gonna have to learn to be a better GM. You this thing is not gonna cut it, um, etc. etc. So um, but now we have uh young peers that we can go to and say, here's our new game. Please play it. Let us know what's going on. And it's a delight of my life that Toby, who's now 20, um, and is in their second year at uh college, has this like whole new crop of people because I was so sad when they're like, oh, high school pandemic trash, the high school's been like, but the where will the new young people go down though? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 50:21

Nice. In that last conversation with Sarah and I. Um, I remember, I believe it was you, Meg, that ran. I don't know how far back, but there was a group, and I want to say it was online, and it was a bunch of folks, and maybe it was once a week. We'd kind of all get on a call, and it was here's what I'm working on, here's what I'm stuck. Uh I missed the best thing. Yes, yes. I don't know. I don't know if I I don't know if it stopped, I don't know if I fell off, I don't know if the pandemic happened, I don't remember what happened, but so uh uh Daniel Solas was the one who started that.

SPEAKER_01 50:58

It was a Wednesday check-in and it was basically uh G it was on G Plus, and when G Plus shut down, it should because it was through a G Plus chat uh thing. Um and basically it was just a Wednesday morning call. Right, you know, what are you working on? What are you stuck on? What do you need help with? What do you have what can you offer? You know, um, and it was just these quick, or no, it wasn't. It was like, what are you working on? What's your top priority? Right. The thing you're working on, right? Uh, what are you stuck? What do you need help with or stuck on? And what can you offer for help right now? Um, it was great.

SPEAKER_04 51:39

It was that was great.

SPEAKER_01 51:40

That and like, yeah, it was you and me, and like Jess Hammer was in there a lot. Yeah, Mo was in there a lot. Um, you know, Graham Walmsley would show up sometimes. They this was like just a ton of people, and the thing I really liked about that was that the mix of that it was um people who were doing game design, people who uh who were doing role-playing games, people who were doing board games, people who were doing um video blog projects, people who were doing writing projects, like it wasn't uh role-playing game specific. It was, you know, what are you working on? What's your top priority? Where are you stuck? How can you help? Freaking brilliant. And like the best thing is like you had 10 minutes.

SPEAKER_08 52:25

Not like everybody's talking forever.

SPEAKER_01 52:27

Like when you got 12 of us on the call, yeah, it would take a little bit longer, but it like really, I mean, I think it was Daniel's way of trying to do a stand-up meeting, right? You know, at the beginning of the day, um in a digital space, because that you know, that just needed uh yeah, I would love to be doing that then. Love that. Oh my god, popular at the end, right? One of the things that made it so effective, what it was that it just happened in the G, and who was there was there. Now, like it would be like if I was to put that out on Blue Sky, uh like, hey, coffee and game design chat, let's do it. It would there'd be this whole complex of like, oh, is it on Zoom? Do I have to be in a Discord? Are we on Google Meet?

SPEAKER_04 53:15

Right.

SPEAKER_01 53:16

Do I need ah yeah. Um, Vincent and I were talking to somebody in the last week or so about like things that really shifted uh the picture in game design. And we in that we were talking about like and then PDFs happened, and then the internet arrived.

SPEAKER_04 53:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:41

This person saying, okay, so in the beginning of role-playing back in 2010, and we're like, no, no, no, no, no. It was great. Um, but like now we're at a place where we have so many places to connect that it's like the connectivity is harder, right? I've been wanting exactly that, Jay. Exactly that. That's sort of like, where is my you know, quick little thing? Damn. Um Kim Lamb, like Kim Lamb's important questions was from that same space. Kim Lamb would ask on G, like, hey, you know, have you taken your morning meds? Have you hydrated? Have you eaten anything? Right, right. Have you like you know connected with other people? Just checking in. You good? Because I could use checking in. I love that. And like that has I I do that in my in uh the apocalypse world discord and the um Dream Seas, the whole Southeast Asian Dream Seas is a big Southeast Asian Discord. They do that because uh you know, Pam and other people who were in my circles uh saw that and were like, oh, this is brilliant. And they do it for real. They do it for real. Like it's so cool. Anyway, um, yeah, I want that. I think we all want that, that sense of community and like creative support and people we can go to. Like, boy, can we do this call every week?

SPEAKER_04 55:21

We were talking about that because um we both work from home for ourselves, and yeah, uh, yeah, I don't have a hey, let's get on a call and talk. It's me and two giant dogs and uh uh my kid when he doesn't have after school stuff.

SPEAKER_01 55:39

Right, right. I feel like we need here. This is an idea you're giving me. I think I feel like we need some sort of I mean it's not a phone tree, I don't know what the shape is, but that that way of like a group of people that are like down for that, right? Right, you know, and just like to hop on a call anytime if I'm available. But I don't like there's a there's a question of like then like where and how. Right. Is that another Discord server? Right. I mean how many Discords exactly it's I really use Discord like I use G Plus circles, right? I it doesn't bother me at all that I have people in five different Discords because like here's where we talk about string and here's where we talk about game design and here's how we where we talk about Minecraft.

SPEAKER_02 56:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:45

It it does feel so fractured. Um and yeah, definitely being like the good old days of G. Back in 2019.

SPEAKER_06 56:57

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 56:58

Uh-huh. Um and I see writers doing that in the writing discords that I'm I'm in that are specifically about writing fiction, they do that. So yeah, I don't I don't know how or why or what it becomes, but it there's clearly like a desire for that. Yeah, yeah.

Final Thoughts And How To Connect

SPEAKER_01 57:27

Yeah, and I think your podcast idea, you know, just this thing, this question of a creative life. And how do we how how do we sustain a creative life and how do we collectively sustain creative life? I think that you know why I was like so excited to be like, yes, we will talk to you. It's a great idea. You wanted a regular guest like that. But you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 57:58

No, I was I was super excited that uh you guys got back to it as fast as you did. I'm like, are they gonna remember who I am? Why like go to the right place? So yeah, no, this is awesome.

SPEAKER_00 58:17

Thank you so much for listening. Please comment and let us know what you thought of the episode or your thoughts on creativity and making games. You can find us at the following. You can see my work at scorcha.net or support my work at patreon.com slash Sarah Doom.

SPEAKER_04 58:34

You can find me on Patreon as MadjZero All Letters or at MadJZero.com. You can also catch the Bakers on Patreon slash lumply L-U-M-P-L-E-I. And we will catch you in the next one.